Saturday, September 29, 2007

The Afflictions of Christ: Part 4

What follows is a pretty long response from "daveski" in our ongoing debate on the meaning of Col 1:24 ("make up for what is lacing in the afflictions of Christ). I started to reply with a long post of my own, but I feel like these longs posts just aren't getting me anywhere. Perhaps it's too much information all at once.

I also know that when both participants are writing lengthy responses, after a while it's difficult to remember what has already been said and what has already been responded to. So, I took a different approach and just asked him some simple questions, in order to really nail down his position and try to figure out what to do next. I'm starting to get frustrated, but we'll see what happens.

In this blog post I have also put the words from my previous post in brackets so that you know exactly what he is responding to.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic
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after re-reading your summary, it is very obvious that we see the efficacy of Christ's death very differently and this is very serious.
in a nutshell, you are saying that we must incur suffering to induce an application of the grace won for us in Christ at Calvary. this is meritorious and not grace.
repeating your last 3 successive points, u said:

[Christ's work on the Cross is "lacking" in the sense that it won the grace, but it did not instantly apply that grace to us. The grace of the Cross must still be applied to us somehow.]

* that "somehow" is by faith, not by suffering. we are justified by faith alone in Chirst alone, not by works (suffering). Paul beautifully proclaims this in Romans 3 & 4 and Galatians 3 as well as numerous places.

[Jesus spilled His Blood, but we still need to be washed in it. This "application," this "washing" is called the "subjective redemption."
-- Paul makes up for this lack, or put another way, Paul insures that the grace of the Cross is applied to us, by suffering.]


* no, pc. Paul is very clear in Romans 5:1-2 that we have access to this grace by faith. He explicitly says, " 1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
to say that we must add something, namely suffering, to merit or access the 'grace' of God is self defeating. it's no longer grace and that thought minimizes the sufficiency of Christ's death. this is what i explained in my first reply to you.

[This says something about individual suffering, that when you take it up willingly and joyfully, when you "rejoice in it" for the sake of others, this good work of yours results in the grace of the Cross being applied to other members of the Body.]

* i underlined the last clause of your sentence because this is unbiblical. in following your train of thought in your successive points, you are saying that our suffering supplements the death of Christ to bring about acutal salvation.
considering your screen-namesake, i am assuming you're catholic, which essentially contradicts Christianity; specifically in this case - the doctrine of justification.
i hope you don't take my words as demeaning, but if i am understanding your summary correctly (and i believe i am), i suggest that you seriously consider what i've said. if you want to talk privately feel free to PM me or email me.
After reading your post I can see that we are definitely talking past each other. For some reason, you're just not gettin me. You're saying things that tell me that you do not understand my position.

I started to write another lengthy post, but I'm gonna scratch that. Just answer these questions for me:
  1. Does the grace Jesus won on the Cross need to be applied to us somehow? Yes or No?
  2. If Yes, how is this grace applied to us?
  3. Besides faith, are there any other ways?
  4. Does God reward good works with grace? Yes or No?
  5. If Yes, does the grace that results from good works only benefit the person who does the good work, or does it also benefit the other members of the Body?
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After I asked him my 5 questions, we had the following short exchange:
to keep us from going in further unnecessary circles, why don't each of u post your understanding of the doctrine of justification.
I think the best route would be for you to respond to the questions I asked you in my last post. I don't think we need to get into a lengthy debate on justification in order to figure out what Col 1:24 means. If you really must know, here is a short definition. You may also wish to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on "Grace and Justification". But, I'd rather not get into that right now.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

1 comment:

Cure of Ars said...

It will be interesting to see what he says. I have a feeling that he is going to respond with a dissertation.

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