Monday, July 11, 2011

Facebook Apologetics: Praying to the Saints, Pt. 3

Here is my last exchange with "Kenneth" on this topic. There have been no further responses by him or any of the other members of this Facebook group. Also see Part 1 and Part 2.

  • The Scriptures are my response. Let others judge the veracity of the arguments.

You didn't directly respond to any of my arguments. You just provided more verses that you think prove your position. Lest you be allowed any more wiggle room, I will ask you directly:

1. Are the angels and saints in heaven aware of our actions on earth? Yes or No. If not, please refute my interpretation of Heb 12:1; 1 Cor 4:9; Lk 15:7,10; Mt 18:10. Was Jesus "seen by angels" or was he not? (1 Tim 3:16).

2. Do angels and saints take our prayers to the Lord? Yes or No. If not, please refute my interpretation of Rev 5:8; 8:3-4.

3. Do angels and saints intercede for us? Yes or No. If not, please refute my interpretation of Job 33:23-25; Jer 15:1; Zech 1:12-13; Rev 6:9-11; Heb 1:14. How else do these "ministering spirits" serve us if not by praying for us?

  • Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead. They are living in the spiritual sense. Jesus also said that those who believe in Him shall never die, yet our cemeteries are filled with believers. When Jesus spoke of life or death, the wise understand that He speaks sometimes of the flesh, and other times of the spirit. When He invited us to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, He explained to His confused disciples that He was speaking in the spiritual sense and of the Holy Spirit.

    Joh 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?"

    Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The WORDS that I speak to you are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.

I realize that the time comes for every person when his body is no longer animated by his spirit. But, it's only his body that is no more. The spirit is the eternal aspect of man that persists even after it leaves the body. Some of these spirits go to heaven b/c they have been enlivened by the grace of Christ. There they live, and are truly alive, in Christ Jesus, forever. Scripture is clear on this point. Any one who dies in Christ will live forever.

These are the spirits who are aware of our actions, who watch over us, who intercede for us, who DO in fact praise the Lord, as Scripture clearly shows. "The dead" that we are told not to conjure are the spirits who are suffering the torments of "the Pit," (which is Sheol/Hades) or even worse, the demons of Satan. These spirits aren't "alive in Christ Jesus" like the saints in heaven are. Our prayers are to an entirely different class of spirit, which is why none of the passages you cited even remotely apply.

All we do is exactly what David did. Answer me this: Was David communicating with the dead when he cried out, "Bless the LORD, O YOU HIS ANGELS, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word!" (Psa 103:20). Was he practicing necromancy when he said, "Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Psa 148:2). Anyone without an axe to grind will surely say no.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

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