Wednesday, May 02, 2012

In Defense of Trinitarian Baptism: Part 3

Here is the final installment of my response to Steve Welborn's comments in refutation of Trinitarian baptism and in defense of speaking in tongues as the sign of authentic baptism. Also see Part 1 and Part 2. Like before, his words will be indented and italicized.

Paul, baptized in the Name of Jesus. Why should you care? Because Paul said in Galatians 1:12 "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

So if anyone were going to baptize in the titles (matthew 28) it would of been Paul. But he didn't because that is not what Jesus told him to do.
Please show me in Scripture where it says that Paul baptized in the name of Jesus. I can't seem to find it anywhere. Was Gal 1:12 supposed to be your proof? If so, I don't see how it says what you think it says. All Paul is saying here is that the gospel he preached and continues to preach came from a special revelation from Christ that he received.

There is no salvation when being baptized in the titles - no matter who tells you otherwise. No Church, No Pope, No Bishop - Not even another Apostle, nor Angel can change the doctrine of the Apostles.
Amen to that last part! And a correction: It is not the Catholic Church that has changed the doctrine of the Apostles, your church has. In Part 2 I said I wouldn't get into this, but now I think it might be necessary.

Look at the historical record. Every person who became a Christian for the first 1500 years of the Church did so through Trinitarian baptism. That was the practice that emerged from the Apostolic period and it continues to be the practice for the churches who have not abandoned what was always done for some "new" and "better" way.

I'll just show you the evidence from the first 400 years, lest I belabor the point:
The Didache (70 AD): "After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days" (Didache 7:1).

Tatian the Syrian (170 AD): "Then said Jesus unto them, ‘I have been given all authority in heaven and earth; and as my Father has sent me, so I also send you. Go now into all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto the end of the world’ [Matt. 28:18-20]" (The Diatesseron 55).

Hippolytus (215 AD): "When the one being baptized goes down into the water, the one baptizing him shall put his hand on him and speak thus: ‘Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty?’ And he that is being baptized shall say: ‘I believe.’ Then, having his hand imposed upon the head of the one to be baptized, he shall baptize him once. Then he shall say: ‘Do you believe in Christ Jesus . . . ?’ And when he says: ‘I believe,’ he is baptized again. Again shall he say: ‘Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and the holy Church and the resurrection of the flesh?’ The one being baptized then says: ‘I believe.’ And so he is baptized a third time" (The Apostolic Tradition 21).

Tertullian (216 AD): "After his resurrection he promises in a pledge to his disciples that he will send them the promise of his Father; and lastly, he commands them to baptize into the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, not into a unipersonal God. And indeed it is not once only, but three times, that we are immersed into the three persons, at each several mention of their names" (Against Praxeas 26).

Origen (248 AD): "The Lord himself told his disciples that they should baptize all peoples in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . . . for indeed, legitimate baptism is had only in the name of the Trinity" (Commentary on Romans 5:8).

The Acts of Xantippe and Polyxena (250 AD): "Then Probus . . . leapt into the water, saying, ‘Jesus Christ, Son of God, and everlasting God, let all my sins be taken away by this water.’ And Paul said, ‘We baptize thee in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost.’ After this he made him to receive the Eucharist of Christ" (Acts of Xantippe and Polyxena 21).

Cyprian of Carthage (253 AD): "He [Jesus] commanded them to baptize the Gentiles in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. How then do some say that though a Gentile be baptized . . . never mind how or of whom, so long as it be done in the name of Jesus Christ, the remission of sins can follow—when Christ himself commands the nations to be baptized in the full and united Trinity?" (Letters 73:18).

Eusebius of Caesarea (323 AD): "We believe . . . each of these to be and to exist: the Father, truly Father, and the Son, truly Son, and the Holy Ghost, truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth his disciples for the preaching, said, ‘Go teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy" (Letter to the People of His Diocese 3).

Cyril of Jerusalem (350 AD): "You were led by the hand to the holy pool of divine baptism, as Christ was carried from the cross to this sepulcher here before us [the tomb of Jesus at Jerusalem]. And each of you was asked if he believed in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. And you confessed that saving confession, and descended three times into the water, and again ascended, and in this there was suggested by a symbol the three days of Christ’s burial" (Catechetical Lectures 20:4).

Athanasius (361 AD): "And the whole faith is summed up, and secured in this, that a Trinity should ever be preserved, as we read in the Gospel, ‘Go ye and baptize all the nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost’ (Matt. 28:19). And entire and perfect is the number of the Trinity (On the Councils of Arminum and Seleucia 2:28).

Basil the Great (367 AD): "The Holy Spirit, too, is numbered with the Father and the Son, because he is above creation, and is ranked as we are taught by the words of the Lord in the Gospel, ‘Go and baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’ He who, on the contrary, places the Spirit before the Son, or alleges him to be older than the Father, resists the ordinance of God, and is a stranger to the sound faith, since he fails to preserve the form of doxology which he has received, but adopts some newfangled device in order to be pleasing to men" (Letters 52:4).

Ambrose of Milan (379 AD): "Moreover, Christ himself says: ‘I and the Father are one.’ ‘One,’ said he, that there be no separation of power and nature; but again, ‘We are,’ that you may recognize Father and Son, forasmuch as the perfect Father is believed to have begotten the perfect Son, and the Father and the Son are one, not by confusion of person, but by unity of nature. We say, then, that there is one God, not two or three gods" (The Faith 1:1[9–10]).

Gregory of Nazianz (380 AD): "But not yet perhaps is there formed upon your soul any writing good or bad; and you want to be written upon today. . . . I will baptize you and make you a disciple in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; and these three have one common name, the Godhead. And you shall know, both by appearances and by words that you reject all ungodliness, and are united to all the Godhead" (Orations 40:45).

Jerome (382 AD): "[S]eeing that a man, baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, becomes a temple of the Lord, and that while the old abode is destroyed a new shrine is built for the Trinity, how can you say that sins can be remitted among the Arians without the coming of the Holy Ghost? How is a soul purged from its former stains which has not the Holy Ghost?" (Dialogue Against the Luciferians 6).

Gregory of Nyssa (383 AD): "And we, in receiving baptism . . . conceal ourselves in [the water] as the Savior did in the earth: and by doing this thrice we represent for ourselves that grace of the resurrection which was wrought in three days. And this we do, not receiving the sacrament in silence, but while there are spoken over us the names of the three sacred persons on whom we believed, in whom we also hope, from whom comes to us both the fact of our present and the fact of our future existence" (Sermon For the Day of Lights).

Augustine (400 AD): "Baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost has Christ for its authority, not any man, whoever he may be; and Christ is the truth, not any man" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24 [57]).
This data basically leaves you with two options:
  1. Jesus allowed basically all of Christendom to act in error regarding a fundamental requirement for their salvation for over 1500 years, or
  2. You might just be wrong about the formula for baptism
Which one is it, Steve?

If you were baptized in the titles - you still have the sin of adam upon you. You are not saved by Water and Spirit, you did not receive the Holy Spirit if you did not speak in tongues. How would someone know you have it if they did not hear you? This is also scriptural and should be followed.
First, regarding me still being in my sin, that's not what Christians have always believed and taught. Excuse me, but I think I'll go with "the faith once for all delivered to the saints" over some denomination that was founded in the 20th century (assuming your church is even that old).

Secondly, as for speaking in tongues, if we follow your logic we're forced to say that:
  • the 3,000 from Acts 2:37-41 didn't receive the Spirit,
  • the Samaritans from Acts 8:12 didn't receive the Spirit,
  • the eunuch from Acts 8:38 didn't receive the Spirit,
  • Saul didn't receive the Spirit (cf. Acts 9:18; 22:16),
  • Lydia and her household didn't receive the Spirit (cf. Acts 16:14-15),
  • the jailer and his household didn't receive the Spirit (cf. Acts 16:33),
  • the Corinthians from Acts 18:8 didn't receive the Spirit.
After all, it doesn't say that any of them received the gift of speaking in tongues when they were baptized! Is that really what you're prepared to say?

Finally, how will people know I've received the Spirit if I don't speak in tongues? First of all, they'll know it because they'll believe that's what happens when a person is baptized. Secondly, they'll know by the love I show my neighbor (cf. Jn 13:35) and by the fruits of the Spirit that I exhibit (cf. Gal 5:22-23). If the Spirit is bearing fruit in your life, I'm pretty sure that means you've received the Spirit.

This isn't just for ancient times folks, this was suppose to continue, for Peter in Acts 2:39 said "39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call."
If this was supposed to continue after the apostolic period, how come the historical record shows that the Church that emerged from this period was baptizing in the Trinitarian formula and not "in the name of Jesus"? Your practice is a novelty! I'll take that "ancient times" teaching!

Obey Acts 2:38 - Its your salvation at stake.
Amen.

Pax Christi,
phatcatholic

7 comments:

Anonymous said...

History means nothing since the church burned the monothesistic believers in the first centuries because they stood up against the new teaching of a trinity.

You should remember I know Church History, I know the didache was being touted to be written by the Apostles or around that time. But can be traced to earlier than 200AD.

The only reason the last 1700 years people were baptized in the trinity formula is because it was forced upon them. To think in any other way would get them killed. Don't try to correct me on this because even when I was catholic I knew this. They controlled by a rod and not by love of the Apostles.

My Church is not a church that broke off from a church, that broke off from another church, that broke away from the catholic church after 1532. We are not a part of you and we don't come from you. We believe what the Apostles taught, Pauls doctrine is Christs' Doctrine and we follow it.


Please show me in Scripture where it says that Paul baptized in the name of Jesus. I can't seem to find it anywhere.


Acts 10 Paul baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus and Acts 10 clearly shows that after they were filled with the Holy Ghost they spoke in tongues.

This data basically leaves you with two options:
Jesus allowed basically all of Christendom to act in error regarding a fundamental requirement for their salvation for over 1500 years, or
You might just be wrong about the formula for baptism


Funny you posed me this question, but Christ said the latter reign will be greater than the former. So I can now believe that there would be 1500 years of error before God allowed His Spirit to be poured out onto all flesh and He speak to His people with stammering lips and an unknown tongue.

I cannot in no way shape or form be wrong about baptism. Because I have PROOF that shows how it is to be done. Peters own Words! Pauls own WORDS! I have the backing of the Apostles chosen by God. You have a man made church that doesn't deny they changed teachings through the years. Created doctrines when Paul clearly says that if anyone comes to you with another Doctrine other than what we taught you, let them be accursed.

I don't have to explain why I believe in Acts 2:38. It is in the BIBLE it is demonstrated many times in the BIBLE. I don't have to second guess my thoughts on this because it is there.

YOU cannot show me where they did it according to Matthew 28:19 - so YOU must explain why you don't want to believe in Acts 2:38 when that was the only way done.

Why do I harp on Baptism and the correct way to do it? Paul clearly thought it was important to do it right - but because Jesus made it clear that we are to believe and be baptized. We must be baptized with Water and Spirit in order to be saved. It is too big of a thing to take it lightly.

Would Paul of been justified if he met the people in Acts 10 who were baptized in the wrong way and say 'There is no real formula, as long as you believe' and go about his way? God forbid! He knew there was a right way and a wrong way to do it.

Paul chose to follow Acts 2:38, not because Peter told him. But because Jesus told him.

Anonymous said...

Your last point on those that were baptized and didn't speak in Tongues..I answered this in the first blog. Baptism of Water and Baptism of the Holy Ghost are two different things. You don't speak in tongues after being baptized in Water. You speak in tongues because the Holy Spirit ascends upon you and into you and your soul reacts to it. Speaking in tongues at that point is the EVIDENCE that you got the Holy Ghost as the Spirit gives you utterance.

I don't expect you to understand this, as a catholic I didn't understand it either. Only after experiencing it myself do I understand. After receiving the Holy Ghost things were revealed to me through Scriptures and I understand more than I ever could as a catholic.

You and your little commenting friends demonstrated why I could never understand. You think in the flesh and not the Spirit. You are too quick to whip out history books and church fathers to learn something..and slow to whip out the Holy Bible and know that this is all you need.

I know the church tells you that not everything Jesus said and did are in Scriptures and you need more, like a catechism to understand things. This is a lie.

You believe when they tell you that the Church came before the bible so you must believe the Bible. But Pauls writtings, the Apostles teachings were around before the catholic church was established. Before Constantine declared everyone catholic - without so much as teaching them the risen Christ and Baptizing them in Jesus Name. This is why the Holy Spirit didn't flow, they wouldn't allow it. They claimed they knew who God was during a time where Mythology was rampant. They changed the teachings of the Apostles into a lie and made into corruptible man (Romans 1:22-23)

Pauls tells us that we are without excuse!

Romans 1:18 "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"


There is no mystery that is not shown to those that have His Spirit. We are going to be judged by what we know..He is not going to leave us ignorant.

We don't need a second book to explain things. You only need to have the Holy Spirit which you get by following Acts 2:38. The Spirit makes all things known to those that seek, but you cannot say you have the Holy Spirit if you didn't have the evidence of getting the Holy Spirit. Regardless of what bishop decided to lay hands on you.


If this was supposed to continue after the apostolic period, how come the historical record shows that the Church that emerged from this period was baptizing in the Trinitarian formula and not "in the name of Jesus"? Your practice is a novelty! I'll take that "ancient times" teaching!

Because the church burned at the stake the people who went against its teachings. This is why.


Finally, how will people know I've received the Spirit if I don't speak in tongues? First of all, they'll know it because they'll believe that's what happens when a person is baptized.

This isn't even Scripturaly sound. The group of people Paul met in Acts 10 haven't even heard of the Holy Ghost..didn't know what he was talking about. You cannot just TELL somebody they have the Holy Ghost, they tell you when you hear them speak in tongues!

Anonymous said...


I know the church tells you that not everything Jesus said and did are in Scriptures and you need more, like a catechism to understand things. This is a lie.

You believe when they tell you that the Church came before the bible so you must believe the Bible. But Pauls writtings, the Apostles teachings were around before the catholic church was established. Before Constantine declared everyone catholic - without so much as teaching them the risen Christ and Baptizing them in Jesus Name. This is why the Holy Spirit didn't flow, they wouldn't allow it. They claimed they knew who God was during a time where Mythology was rampant. They changed the teachings of the Apostles into a lie and made into corruptible man (Romans 1:22-23)


I want to rephrase this since there is no edit button for non-account users.

the line: 'You believe when they tell you that the Church came before the bible so you must believe the Bible.' Should read:
You believe when they tell you that the Church came before the bible so you must believe the Church.

my other points still stand.

Anonymous said...

I guess to further expound upon my comment and the Church before the Bible thought. The Apostles mainly Paul and whoever he chose to go with him, went about creating Churches. These Churches were each founded upon Acts 2:38, each town he went too after they heard about Christ Crucified and believed, they were baptized in the Name of Jesus. The books to the Churches - can be found in the Book of Acts.

So again, let me rephrase. The Church may have came before the compiled version of the Bible. But the teachings of the Apostles were known and followed until as Paul puts it in 1 John 2:19 'They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us' and corrupted the Gospel of Christ.

Again, my point to this whole section is that there is no need to have secondary books and church fathers to understand God. When you get the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God, He reveals truth to you so that you are without excuse!

History, as many of you want to point out, are filled with people in the church that wrote books on many topics. However, the reason why you don't see any writings from those that believed other than trinitarian doctrine is because they were accused of heresy and killed for their beliefs.

There is historical accounts of believers in the 1st century that believed as the Apostles believed - that Jesus is the invisible image of God and that God, because He could not find one person in all the World to be an intercessor (Isaiah), created a man and robed Himself into flesh and died for us. The Church of the Apostles knew that Jesus was a man, but yet fully God because God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with Power, to be the Messiah and spotless Lamb to die for our sins. The Apostles never taught that Jesus was God the Son or equal to God. In fact you never see Jesus the man referenced as such, but always God and Jesus. If Jesus was a part of God - then that reference wouldn't make sense. if God included Jesus, then saying God is already a reference to Jesus. But scriptures show they are separate every time.

In fact if you compare the beliefs of the church fathers from 100AD to 300AD you will see that it changed drastically throughout the years. The first belief about Jesus and God never included the Holy Spirit, at least not until closer to 300AD. The first belief of how they existed only included Jesus and the Father but lacked the mention of the Holy Spirit. This is the result of going away from the teachings of the Apostles into their own fleshly thoughts

But those that believed this were killed and their writings purged until the latter reign has come. Which is now, we ARE in the End Times. God's Spirit is being poured out on His people and we are speaking with stammering lips and an unknown tongue. We are reliving Pentecost with miracles and signs and wonders.

Anonymous said...

continued

I don't once see Paul teach that if others don't believe as you do to kill them. Rather, his teachings were clearly taught in 2 Corinthians 6:14 'Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers..'. Just don't associate with them if they are not of the same yoke. But the early church, the one legalized by a king and made people instantly 'christian' not to mention lacked the real Holy Spirit and changed or created doctrines to agree with their mythology based version of god, killed those that opposed their thoughts and teachings.

As a former catholic, I know the rebuttals you can make to this. But now that I know Truth, I don't need the early fathers or history or a catechism to give me understanding. I was baptized in the Name of Jesus and a few months later filled with His Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. I have since been used by God in the Gifts of the Spirit with Knowledge and Wisdom and with discerning of Spirits. I know Scriptures like never before and have heard the still small voice of God because I Fast, Pray and read Scriptures every day/week. I know truth like never before and this isn't due to 'personal interpretation' because I don't listen to a church tell me what to believe.

This is by following what God has laid out for us via the Apostles and believing what they believed and doing what they told us to do.

The Holy Scriptures trumps everything - even Popes and Catechisms.

Anonymous said...

You know the more I read my comments the more I want to put down. Now if you go making more blogs and answer this please tell me.

but you had said in opening comment in this blog:

Please show me in Scripture where it says that Paul baptized in the name of Jesus. I can't seem to find it anywhere. Was Gal 1:12 supposed to be your proof? If so, I don't see how it says what you think it says. All Paul is saying here is that the gospel he preached and continues to preach came from a special revelation from Christ that he received.


I want to take this time to explain what I mean by this. I feel it is pretty important.

So, as I pointed out, in Acts 10 Paul found a group of men that, according to Scriptures, were believers. Paul went up to them and said 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?'. They had no idea what he was talking about, so the answer to his question was 'no'.

Paul, after hearing that they were baptized only in repentance, knew that this wasn't correct. He preached to them Christ Crucified and told them that they must be baptized in the Name of Jesus. After hearing Paul preach they were all baptized that way. The Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues. This is the evidence that they just received the Holy Spirit.

So why is this piece of Scripture so important? This is only one example out of many, but I am glad you asked.

Because if any of the Apostles were going to baptized according to what Jesus 'said' at Matthew 28:19 - it would of been Paul.

Why would it of been Paul? This is why I referenced Galatians 1:12, Paul tells us that he was not taught by man. His teachings were from Christ. So if Jesus truly wanted them to Baptize in the trinitarian formula, if it existed, Paul would of done it.

Romans 6:3-4 tells us why it is important to be baptized in the Name of Jesus:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


When we are baptized in the Name of Jesus we are robed into Christ, we become Christ-like and a part of the Priesthood. But we must be robed in Christ and have the Spirit of God in you. Which you get the same way the Apostles did it starting in Acts.

How can someone claim to be baptized into Christ Jesus if His Name is never mentioned during the Baptism? There is no Power in the saying Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. But there is Power in the Name of Jesus. Who's Name is above all Names. The Name in which everything is to be done in.

So to wrap up my point. Paul baptized in the Name of Jesus, even rebaptizing those he found in error, not because he was present at Pentecost or was ever taught by the Apostles. But because Jesus revealed it to him to do it this way.

We are called to be Apostles and to follow what the Apostles done. To follow what the Apostles believed is to follow how they did things in Acts of the Apostles. To change or create new doctrines that go contrary to what they taught, they will be accursed. Which is probably why you can see the Catholic Church in Revelation as the false prophet bring back the Holy Roman Empire just as back in 1300 with Charlemagne.

Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It's not too late to receive this Promise.

Anonymous said...

Please show me in Scripture where it says that Paul baptized in the name of Jesus. I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I replied
Acts 10 Paul baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus and Acts 10 clearly shows that after they were filled with the Holy Ghost they spoke in tongues.


Sometimes I type this and hit the wrong key, only to read later and find an issue:

When referring to Acts 10 in my responses above - I really mean Acts 19.

To show my repent of this error - here is Acts 19 and the verse I refer too over again in my comments above:

Acts 19
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.


We are witnessing here in Acts 19, the birth of the Church in Ephesus. This is how the Churches were created, based upon believing in Jesus Christ, repenting of their sins and being Baptized in the Name of Jesus. Then they shall be baptized (receive) in the Holy Ghost (evidence is speaking in tongues). This is Acts 2:38 - this is how each Church that are in Scriptures were created.

The Letter from Paul to the Ephesians is this very same Church that Paul founded. This very scripture is how each Church found in the Letters from Paul were created. No where were they created using a triniarian formula.


For the record let's not discount Acts 10 and all that it teaches and says. Read it and let the Spirit of God come upon you and teach you.

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