
-- Letters 90; O. XII, pp. 204-205
Thank you for posting Daily with DeSales. Oct 22 is appropriate for me today.Good! That's why I post those excerpts from his works. St. Francis de Sales is a superb spiritual director and apologist. We can only benefit from what he has to say to us.
I recently discovered your website and could spend hours (if I had the time) going to all links to everything.Yea, I'm a tad obsessed, if you can't tell :D
I am a cradle catholic who has become disenchanted with the church. In a round about way, I am trying to talk myself into going back to the catholic church. How am I doing this, you ask. Well, in the course of doing a novel challenge, I am using it to convert the main character to Catholicism, which will also give me a refresher course and convince myself. My question for you is (since I am overwhelmed by all the choices on your site) what book(s) would you recommend I read that will convince me to come back. God has inspired me to join this challenge and any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.It is very admirable of you to give Catholicism a second chance. Some people give little thought to abandoning the Church of their youth, yet I see from your words that you consider this to be a very important decision. I am definitely here to help in any way I can.
To encourage me to pray to the saints, I used to told the story of a man who wanted a job in a factory. Rather than approach the owner directly, he went to talk to his cousin who already worked there and asked him to take his petition to the owner.These stories are just variations of the same one you told me about the white house, only with the added information that they were told to you when you were young, instead of being stories you made up to prove your point. It doesn't matter either way. None of them properly reflect Church teaching. If these stories were indeed taught to you as a child, then you have been improperly catechized --which is often the case with people who leave Catholicism.
Or, as a teenager, I was told that if I wanted to stay out late at a party, it was always best to take my request to my mother who would present it to my father and soften the blow!
The more we think of God as a stern ruler out to get us, the more we need saints or Mary to take our requests. We don't feel worthy to go directly to God, the Supreme Being, the Infinite Unknowable Creature!The Catholic Church is just as opposed to that type of mentality as you are. She doesn't even use such arguments in defense of praying to the saints.
The problem with devotions to saints is while they may give us a warm glow, they really are diversions.40 years as a Catholic and you are still ignorant of what the Church teaches. You are not even engaging our actual arguments. We don't look at the saints that way.
When you have a personal relationship with Jesus, devoid of all clutter, you can call God 'abba' - not that you deserve to, but because He wants you to.
Can you imagine people living at the time of Jesus seeking Him out. But His followers said, 'no, you can't go directly to Him, set up an altar to one of His disciples or apostles and learn all about that person and ask him to take your prayers to Jesus. Light a candle and put flowers round an altar to Matthew or Mark or Luke.'
Jesus is as present today as He was when He walked earth. Yes, I ask Christians to pray for me but I don't set up a devotion to another Christian. I admire Billy Graham, but I'll never place flowers before his image.All Catholics are doing is obeying the commands of Peter and Paul when they tell us to honor our fellow members of the Body and really anyone who holds a dignified place:
Billy Graham would not want that. He would say: 'Listen to Jesus when He said - come to me all you who labour.'
Whitestone - what an invitation! All the rest is diversion.
Thank you for your explanations to my question about praying to the saints. I found your answers very profound - but not convincing!How about the part where I explain how the saints can hear our prayers w/o being omniscient/omnipresent, and even if they were, this wouldn't make them Gods? You seem to have moved on to the angels-saints distinction, and to some nice little anecdotes that don't prove anything ;)
You are rather liberal in equating saints with angels. Yes, angels are at our disposal and aid, but saints - that is, people once living on earth and now in heaven -do not move between heaven and earth like angels, except in exceptionsl cases such as at the transfiguration. (Remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus)Well, even though Samuel did appear to Saul in 1 Sam 28, and there have been several apparitions of Mary that no doctors or scientists have been able to explain, I never mentioned saints moving between heaven and earth so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. They don't have to move between heaven and earth in order to hear our prayers anyway, so even if they weren't able to do this, it wouldn't really matter.
You give many reasons for praying to saints. I offer just two reasons why I don't.Saints may grow and wane in popularity, but they are never de-canonized. Even when it is found that no solid historical evidence exists about the life of a saint, this does not then mean that the person in question ceases to be a saint, nor are Catholics ever discouraged from praying to him. The canonization of a holy man or woman is infallible, and cannot be revoked.
1. Saints fall in and out of fashion. For example, St George the patron saint of England, has been dismissed by most serious scholars as a figment of the medieval imagination. St Philomena is currently under review - and there are many more in the same catagory. So how is it possible to pray to a saint sanctioned by the church in one era and dismissed in another?
2. I remember hearing the story about a soldier who wanted to speak with President Lincoln. Of course, when he arrived at the White House he was told he couldn't just walk in and expect to speak with the president. He would have to make an appointment with his senator and congressman. He should speak to their secretaries, write a letter and make a request.That's a cute story, but it doesn't really prove anything. Catholics too believe that the Son has direct access to the Father. No one is denying that. Praying to saints does not implicitly reveal some secret belief that we can only gain access to God through the saints, or that Jesus isn't good enough to pray to. Protestants like to assume that, but it's not true.
He left the White House downhearted, clutching a handful of forms and request slips.
A young boy saw him and asked what was wrong. When the soldier told the boy, he grabbed the soldier's hand and marched up to the White House gates which opened wide and the pair walked past security. The boy then opened the front door of the White House. He then took the soldier along a corridor and then another and no-one questioned or stopped them. Suddenly, they came to a large door and the soldier just knew that was the door to the Oval Office.
The boy opened the door and there was Abraham Lincoln sitting at his desk. The president looked up, saw the soldier then the boy and said: "Robert, son, what can I do for you."
The boy smiled at the president and said: "Dad, this soldier needs to speak with you."
You see, the Son has direct access to the Father.
I know Catholics who venerate saints, who confuse devotion with worship. They actually do pray TO a statue, touching it like a good luck charm.And how do you know that? Did they tell you that? From my experience dialoguing with Protestants, it's more likely that you saw someone kneeling in front of a statue and you simply assumed that's what they were doing. Such assumptions are dangerous b/c they are based on inference and conjecture, instead of on the actual motivations for the posture.
I remember standing in Westminster Cathedral, London, the seat of Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor. The tabernacle in which Catholics believe is Jesus Christ, body, soul and divinity was looking lonely in the sanctuary. But beside me near a large statue of St Andrew (I think it was him) a queue of Catholics was standing, waiting to touch the foot of this giant plaster statue, whispering a prayer and then bowing their heads, giving the plaster foot a final pat before leaving.The touching of a statue of a saint is a symbol of the respect and admiration we have for them, as holy men and women who ran the race to completion and won the imperishable wreath. It can be very heart-warming to ponder the lives of these saints, and it is good to appreciate them for being such amazing role models for us. Since we obviously can't hug them ourselves, we make a gesture of appreciation towards a statue or image of them. Again, the gesture is not for the statue, but for the saint symbolized by it.
Now, if you actually believe the tabernacle contains Jesus, body, soul and divinity, why on earth or in heaven, would you rub a plaster statue's big toe? You would be prostrate in front of the tabernacle.
This is the problem with saintly devotion. It becomes a faith, a religion, a diversion in itself and deprives the masses of a deep, personal and loving relationship with Jesus, the one Mediator with the Father. If Jesus told us to go to Him, why not take Him at His word?More assumptions on your part, my friend. When you ask one of your brothers in Christ on earth to pray for you, does that become a "diversion in itself" that "deprives" you of "a deep, personal and loving relationship with Jesus"? Of course not! Well, the same thing applies here. The saints do not interfere with my relationship with Christ anymore than your fellow brothers in Christ do.
Re: prayign to the saints - had argument earlier with someone saying that the body of Christ is not united with itself either between earth an heaven or earth-to-earth. Woudl desire help on that one.I think this is clearly refuted by what Scripture says about the Body of Christ being one:
Exactly, how do saints in heaven hear our prayers? Are they omniscient and omnipresent? Can one popular saint, for example Padre Pio, hear millions of prayers at the same time? If so, he would be God.I'm not exactly sure how the saints are able to hear all of our prayers, I just know that they can. It could be for a variety of reasons, and I go over a few of them here. But, ultimately, I think that how they are able to hear are prayers is not as important as the fact that they can.
I can ask my friend in England where I live to pray for me as I prepare for an exam. I can ask you in America to do the same, through the internet. But someone in Sydney, Australia who does not know me, cannot hear my request or know I am preparing for an exam can only make a general prayer "for anyone sitting an exam" because they are not omnipresent or omniscient.Well, I hope what I've said here helps a little. The earlier blog post I linked to may also help, since it provides a few explanations for how it could be that the saints are able to hear our prayers.
Your Biblical references (1 Cor 9 and Heb 1: 13, specifically refer to angels, not the saints in heaven.)Yes, but angels are saints. All of the inhabitants of heaven, the angels and the souls of the righteous, are called saints. They are all spirits without a body standing before the Face of God. There's no reason to believe that the saints would not be just as able to hear our prayers as the angels are.
In January of this year, I stood before my fellow CHRP brothers at St. Isaacs Jogues parish and gave a witness on Christian renewal. Quoting Romans 12:6-8, I vowed to use my talents and skills to aid the Church and evangelize Catholic faith. LoveToBeCatholic.com is the first step in the fulfillment of that promise.I can dig it. Also, LTBC.com sells these pretty cool bracelets that say "It's Cool to Be Catholic" in Latin on them. It looks like something that would be great to give your youth group or your Catholic club/organization. Make sure you check that out.
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Anywho, what about Nicolaitans believing in a ONE MAN Authority over the Church.... Elders/Pastors being superior to those of the congregation instead of fellow brotherhood...There is no indication in Scripture that they believed that. Your only proof is the etymology of the name "Nicolaitan," but even this does not prove your case. The name could just as easily mean "victory of the people" or "victorious people." Also, Dr. John Lightfoot says that the name comes from the word (hlykn) , "Nicolah", "let us eat", which they often used to encourage each other to eat things offered to idols (below we shall see how prevalent is this understanding of their practices).
This is one of the main reasons they were hated by Christ.Jesus is not condemning the positions themselves but instead those who are in love with them, who pride themselves in holding these positions, and who forget that it is b/c God is Father, Teacher, Master, etc. that anyone is able to hold such positions on earth. We know this b/c Jesus tells us in just a few verses prior to the passage you have cited (cf. Mt 23:1-3) to respect the authority of the scribes and Pharisees who sit on Moses' seat. He would not have said this if he rejected positions of authority among the people.
Matthew 23:8-11 "Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren .... Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant,"
Ignatius eh...Heck I believe them... Espicopal Gov't is overtly Heretical.Perhaps you overlooked these verses?: